Right Man Wrong Time

1:47 And welcome back to the Boundary Corner Podcast, a part of the College Huddle Network. Along with my partner, Brian Siegler, I'm Curtis Wilson, and this episode is brought to you by Doctor Jeremy Counts down at the Counts Family Pharmacy, your friendly neighborhood pharmacy, three O 1 S Main St. in Blacksburg. We are also brought to you by Moments on the Mori. Are you looking for a weekend getaway but still want to make it to Blacksburg for the game? Then Moments on the Mori is exactly what you're looking for. Owned by Proud Hokie and located just outside Lexington, VA, this place gives you fishing, kayak and canoeing or just relaxing by or in the river right outside your back door. So check out the links in our comments section or at Instagram at Moments on the Morgue. Brian, we got a couple very special guests on tonight for a very special episode.

2:38 So let's bring in our first guest. She is the wonderful wife of Our Music Man and the editor of the Roanoke Magazine. Long time friend of ours colleague. Long. Time. Long time. Liz. Long How are you, Liz? I'm well, how are you guys? Oh, doing so good, doing so good. We appreciate you coming on with us tonight. And it's it's a special night. I feel like this is this has been something that we've been really excited about and we've been talking about for a couple weeks now. So very excited to bring it to fruition. Well, thank you guys for having me and of course for having our guest that you're going to introduce here in a minute. Really appreciate the time and really excited to chat about what's going on for this episode. So when the article we're going to be discussing tonight, when will folks down in the New River Valley, those who have the role in Okra magazine, when will they see this? So it should be hitting subscriber mailboxes later on this week, so August 18th through the 21st typically as your USPS man arrives at your doorstep. And then of course, they'll be hitting news stands over the next week or two over that.

3:42 So by the 1st week of September, you should be able to go to all your local spots, not only your Barnes and Nobles and your Kroger's, but also Crystal Spring Grocery. You've got your Barnes and Noble and Christiansburg, of course in New River Valley. We're also going to have some special places in the New River Valley and Blacksburg that are carrying it for us, especially for this particular issue. So we'll list all that stuff on our website and we'll be sure to share that cuz we're gonna have this episode on our website too and make sure to link everything for people. We appreciate that. I did not know we were gonna be on the website, Ron, we're gonna be on the website. We're gonna be on the website, man, that's gonna be cool. So before we bring rolling on to kind of talk through what this is all about, let's let's let's throw the cover up here.

4:23 Yeah, it's. So exciting. It's such a great cover. I'm so proud of this one. We just got a sample today in our office. I'm holding my hands now. This photo and the photos inside that you're going to see in the feature are by the fabulous Aaron Spicer. He's a local photographer here in Ronan, Virginia, and he does photography all over. He has photographed so many amazing people. And so we're very, very lucky that he not only has the time and love for his local magazine, his local city magazine, but of course for the time and the effort and all the skill that went into photographing Coach Pry and, and the amazing work that you're going to see I see inside this issue. It's exciting stuff. And I mean, I know when we got a little bit of an early sample there and got to take a look at what was going on in preparation for this and really a whole lot of insight and it looks like a whole lot of work behind the scenes that go into this thing that you put out every month.

5:13 Yeah, so what's very interesting about the magazine world, especially in terms of the Roanoke magazine, we're bimonthly, which means it is a, you know, it's a 2 month issue, so we have to plan pretty far in advance. I actually tend to plan on editorial about a year in advance. So that gives you any idea of how long I've been wanting this story to come to fruition. And so to give a little background, you know, obviously we live here in Roanoke, VA. We're surrounded by, you know, Virginia Tech Hokies and just the love that all of the fans have for the school and the team and especially the football team. And so it's very easy for us to think about, you know, how college football is going to go around here because go ACC, right? So we thinking about the magazine. We've been around for 52 years and we have covered Virginia Tech football as well as other Virginia Tech sports and of course, regional sports. But we have covered Coach Beamer. He's been on our cover at least once or twice. We've had all sorts of different opportunities to interview and cover the many, many years of great Virginia Tech football. So about a year ago, I believe, honest to God, I think we we're sitting here watching your podcast and I started thinking about Virginia Tech football and the way you guys were talking about it.

6:18 I am a fan, of course, I love sports, but I don't necessarily get the statistics the way you do. But you know, what I can do is I can figure out how to tell a story. So I figured I would really love to dive in, not only to coach pride and the football team, but you know, Jason and you guys and everybody's been talking about the NIL and how all this comes together in terms of a national story. And so when I was thinking about how to do this story, there was literally, I'm not even joking, literally really no other writer in this world that I would rather have write this piece than Mr. Roland Lazenby. Not only because of his background and just the prolific writing that he's able to do, but he's a local. He knows the stories. He literally has worked in communications, you know, and sports writing for, for decades for Virginia Tech, for our region.

7:00 And so he was the one and only choice. And thank goodness because he was so gracious in taking this piece on and being able to do it in the midst of his busy schedule between documentaries and sports writing and magazines. So he's just not only a wonderful sports writer and a great friend of mine, but just really generous with his time. So huge shout out to him for covering this piece. And I'm happy to talk more about the article. But he's going to be such a wonderful interview and I can't wait for your leader, listeners and readers and and viewers to meet him and to learn more about him. Absolutely, Liz. And you know, seeing the work already. We we got a sneak preview to it. The article was unbelievable. We just spent a few minutes backstage with Roland.

7:42 So we look forward to it. And again, we really appreciate you getting us this straight up getting us this, because I don't know if we would have landed in any other way if one of a guy I've known since elementary school's wife had not gotten with Roland and running this unbelievable article. So we thank you for all of that. And we, I don't know, it's, it's tough to say because, you know, little connections in the world go a long way. Right. I feel like it's Prismet truly. And, and really I, I think that this story is so important, not again, not only in terms of Virginia Tech football, but the NIL applies to every college across the nation, right? All college athletes, their, their families, the teammates, the staff and sports and coaches, everybody that's working together is involved in this story in some way. And so this is not just a regional story, it is a national story.

8:34 And again, what better persons tell this story and to care more about his insights and Roland Lazenby perfection. All right. Well, that's Brian. Yeah, let's Liz. Talked him up twice. Let's let's do a little introduction and bring him in here. All right, Liz, we appreciate the time spending with you tonight. Yes, thank you. I hope readers can pick up a copy as soon as possible. You're really going to enjoy this story. And thank you so much for supporting your local city magazine, your favorite college football podcast, and of course, just readership in general. We really appreciate your support. Thank you. And go, Hokies, obviously go. Hokies. All right, well, again, without further ado, let's let's let's bring him on. It's Roland Lazenby, member of the Department of Communication at both Virginia Tech and Radford, writer of more than five dozen books on basketball and football, including works on the Final Four, the Showtime Lakers, the 90s, Bulls, Colt Legend, Johnny U, Tom Brady and of course, the the run of late with Jerry West, Kobe Bryant, and wrote the book on the life of Michael Jordan. Here he is, guys.

9:43 Rolling lays at me. Boy, that was tough. She, you know, there's too many people around here that know me. Anyway, she is sweet. Yeah, this is great. Again, we, we, we've known Liz for a while and she's definitely one of the best people that there is out there. A while we've known her 20 plus years, college, college classmates, married again, one of our good friends and Roland. Before we even start the questions and let you unload here, thank you for a giving us your time. But I think, yeah, I tell you man, I sell autographs too for a dollar. So you guys are keeping me from my fortune. There we go.

10:32 But but but also, I think in the coming weeks here, thank you for writing this piece because I think you're going to be under uncovering a lot for Hokie Nation and things. Maybe the way again, we've gotten Privy to the article already, the way it was written, I think some eyes are going to open up about what's going on with the future of NIL transfer portal and just college sports in general. And Speaking of that, let's let's kick it right off. The collegiate arms race has completely changed. It used to be the best facilities, the nice jerseys, the swag packages, boosters dropping thousands of dollars in kids cars and that's where they went to school because that's who gave them the money. And now we're compensation is pay or play. When all of this started coming downhill, you've been writing sports books.

11:23 You mentioned you know you were Georgetown in 85 when they cost you some money with a book deal. But as you started seeing this come down, what is just your thought on the change of college sports in general with the with the thought of NIL? Well, as we all know, college sports has been all sports has changed dramatically constantly over a century and a half. However long you want to take spectator sports in America back, you know, I've written a lot of books. I wrote a history of Virginia Tech football in 86. And the program had cratered right then.

12:04 So I think it may be sold 1000 copies. I don't know. And but it left me determined that whatever I did in life, I was going to try to write books and had a chance of selling. And of course, right in the cratering of the Bill Dooley era and some of the gross miscalculations there, here comes Frankie Beamer there. We go. And you know, I've, I've, I have to say, I've had a lot of fun riding for the Roanoke or over the years. Probably the most involving story for me was writing about Frank's family.

12:47 They, they, you know, he explained to me one night in the hallway that they were the Allens who shot up the courthouse in Carroll County, New York Times. All of that and, and the stain on his family and his mother, Herma, her brother, Frank's uncle, who championed him. And so his uncle finally things got to him. He committed suicide when Frank was a junior at Virginia Tech. And so it's a very hard story, but a very important story is The Who Frank was. And this came out years ago on the Roanoke are but the Roanoke has given me nice opportunity to to do stories that matter to me and Virginia Tech does.

13:40 I went to VMI because I hated Virginia Tech and you know, I was helping my old man put insulation in the ceiling of a cabin we had and listening to the 1969 Tech VMI game. And the year before Tech had wax BMI 70 to 10 and VMI or 70 to 12. It was 70 to 12 and VMI won in 6912 to 10. And not only did I, I had it's the only college I applied to. I had terrible grades and but I got in, I had good boards. But anyway, I got to play football at VMI as a walk on and so that I was tell my grandsons that was my Super Bowl, but also getting to play, I believe in the last Shrine game between the back then freshmen weren't eligible. We scrimmaged varsity four days a week, but to scrimmage against the Tech football team and, and you know, we arrived in one bus, We had like 45 on the roster and Tech gave I believe 90. Scott, there was no limit on scholarships and Tech soaked up every available player.

15:08 That's one reason I'm sure I was a walk on and they had, they gave something like 90 freshman scholarship that year. So it it was an object lesson to me in the the great lust of the Hokies for what would you call it, prominence, dominance, I don't know, but they've always had that. And of course, I taught at Tech 11 years from 99 pivotal years in the terms of the program. I taught there full time from 99 to 2010. And I taught media writing to, you know, 120 sophomores a year a semester.

15:56 So I, I, I love Tech. I was there through the difficult times. But the important thing is the whole dynamic that everyone knows. I mean, what a wonderful thing to have Metallica. That was a religious experience. Yes, it was. And you know, the first team, they had a concert to raise money for the first very first team. Faculty members, wife of soprano gave a concert and they gave all the proceeds to the football team. So there's tradition there. And you know, the early days, everybody showed up in horse and buggies with the school colors.

16:40 I don't think they were Chicago maroon and burnt orange at first, but I could be wrong. Black and Gray, black, black and. Gray if I. Recall, Yeah. And so this runs deep in the Southwest Virginia hills that we all love. This is serious business and the economy. I mean, Virginia Tech is such a generator from all the medical apparatus and research and operation in Roanoke. Just so many things so important to this state.

17:21 And yet, you know, I'm in. I've edited Lindy's pro basketball annual and Al Birmingham for 31 years now few years back, Lindy who owns a he's a he's a lawyer who never practiced law. He publishes. He's University of Alabama graduate and he had me come. He says you've never seen anything like this. I said Lindy, I'm I'm really had a lucky life covering the NBA and spent the 90s with the Bulls. What are you talking about? I go down there, I've never seen anything like the University of Alabama.

18:02 You know, they got acres and acres of tailgating. It's I mean, it would make Tex Saturday look like a country picnic. It is huge. I mean, you the scope of it and you know, they have maximized the whole football mojo thing in terms of out of state tuition. They they rake in 10's and 10s of millions a year to the point and they're all there to coast sitting at football stadium on Saturdays to the point that 50% of their students at the University of Alabama are from some place other than Alabama.

18:48 They have more out of state tuition than in state tuition. Now Virginia Tech has always been, it's had a a long term tie. You know Hank Crisp, Virginia Tech's one arm football player from back in the 20s Hank Crisp coached at Alabama for years. Frank Mosley was Bear Bryant's roommate, Frank Mosley who was the coach and then the AD at Tech and Alabama and Virginia Tech went at each other. And so Virginia Tech with Vick's appearance in 99 right when I I started teaching there. Man, that mojo of that out of state tuition, which is vital in this age.

19:43 Higher education is challenged like never before. And I don't want to get into the political factors of that, but it is challenged for a variety of reasons. And Virginia Tech has a sweet mojo. People love to come down there and get crazy. They love to jump up and down. They like to do that whole thing. ESPN loves to put it on their broadcast. It is a mojo. Those kids see it, and that's sweet. That booger fat out of state tuition helps drive the whole thing. And if you can do all that jumping around, if you will make all that noise and get all that brouhaha going, you got to have you a football team.

20:38 There we go and it is what what the price tag come up. We're looking at, Wit said today He needs another what, 6570 million on top of the 122 that he's already got for the for the program. Well, he's running a pro sports franchise like every every other school is and that is not you know, if you had that kind of money somebody when I was teaching their VM is I mean VP is entire foundation was 300 million and then 9/11 hitting it dropped 60 or 80 million.

21:22 It's now over a billion. But that's money to spend on research. And you know, if you raise $70 million, the idea you'd put it into some of this hokey stone you guys got on your beautiful podcast, you'd put it into all kinds of developmental things, including some athletics, obviously. But you raised $70 million. It's going to be gone. I won't say months, but it's going to be gone pretty quickly because you're paying pro salaries and you're now tech. Brent Price been very crafty about what he pays and what he bids.

22:06 They found talent to compete. But it's my personal opinion. I went down there. I didn't even ask a lot of questions till I got to sit down with him. I just wanted to watch him and watch everybody, watch the players, watch the media, question them. I just wanted to look at everybody and I came away prize a pretty cool customer. You know, when he talked to me sort of first, one of the first things he did, he sort of acknowledged under his breath and we got to coach a little bit any you know, all the great coaches.

22:48 I've had a lot of luck. I spent the 90s with the Bulls with Phil Jackson and Tex winner and the great coaches are realist to the core. They that that they're very fact based. It's not a it's not an I apologize for that daggone phone, not to hide it somewhere, but but it you know, the great coaches are very fact based. And I I had to I had to see is he real? And he is he knows. I think the reset button is not what it used to be because the there's so many moving parts, the coaching college major college football today, it's not a three or four year window. Now you can see if somebody is a total disaster. You can see that sometimes in two seasons. But this is this learning curve has been substantial. And but the other big reason I don't think that this school can afford to unless the season just falls flat on its face on its face, and I don't think it will.

24:01 I don't think they can afford that. If they got 70 million, they're certainly not thinking about spending 5 to 8 million on another coach. You, you got to put that money in players. You can't put that money anywhere else. And and, you know, somebody's going to have to come in here and learn the culture to make this thing work. Yeah. And let's talk about that a little bit because you know, you've hit on pride a good amount here. And kind of what were your initial takeaways were for that? Let's talk about pride at Virginia Tech. What is kind of a benchmark for success in this NIL era for a Brent Pryor regime at Virginia Tech? Well, it's got a coach better.

24:44 They need to win more games that they really have zeroed in on winning close games. What you got to do? I mean, I'm not, I'm, you know, if you want a coach to be a realist, you got to be a realist too. And looking at the program, but I think they got a clear window to, I don't know, at least above 500, maybe eight wins. They might get another win, they might not. But I will tell you this, the other parallel is these new coordinators. I think there's a really good mojo with them. I don't think it's going to.

25:28 I mean, it is rapid assembly you are building all the first of all, a lot of the values have been drained off of college athletics. And so that's why the story's called Love and the Time of Neil, which is a take off on the Nobel Prize winning novel, Love and the Time of Cholera. This is sort of a collar. But you know, I just wanted to, I wanted, I wanted to look closely as these guys who stayed here were being interviewed. And then I wanted to look at the guys who had come in via the port and you know, I everything this country's ever done, whether it's D-Day or whatever has been 17/18/1920 year old kids, every major thing this country's ever accomplished, it's been on those kinds of fresh faces, people who are willing.

26:39 And that's what I absolutely loved about teaching at Virginia Tech. I had the most amazing kids. And I mean, I'm not being nostalgic. They were just amazing and they, they're great kids. It is a great place that really attracts fantastic young people. It's had its heart breaks, but this is an existential moment, which is what I am saying in the magazine piece because there is, it's not a delicate mojo, but it is a well balanced mojo.

27:28 You have got to sustain what Frankie Beamer and Bud Foster established. There's a, there's a grit. It's there. Pry gets it, Coach Price, all those coaches do. It is a culture. You know a lot. I'm an NBA guy, so there's a lot made of heat culture. Well, hokey culture. It it is a thing that matters deeply now that that goes on at a lot of schools. But I, I don't care about a lot of the schools. I, I, I care about this one.

28:08 It is the region I've lived in my whole life. It is the place that feeds us all or helps to feed us all. And so the football team is important to bringing those students. It's important to the experience. Is it $70 million eaten up in five years or four years or three years? Important. I don't see how that's, I mean, I went to Blacksburg this spring because Coach Sands made this comment almost on his side that it's not sustainable. And the truth is he's absolutely correct.

28:50 This is not sustainable unless, you know, when, when Frankie had his trouble, he had to fire and change his assistant coaches and that changed the, the arc of his narrative at Virginia Tech. He had his heart in the right place. And so the evaluation's going to have to be, are these the right guys? Can we afford to, to be sort of cavalier about it? You know, I, I will say my observation about the hokey fan base. I, I, I dealt with a lot of schools because I've done a lot of projects with a lot of schools.

29:32 Duke, Louisville, University of Florida, the list goes on. Billy Packer and I work together on a lot of things back. I got to know Billy in the 80s when I first, when I did my first book on Ralph Sampson and Billy and I ended up doing 5 books together and Billy is a money guy. The first lesson he taught me was keep your money in your pocket and let people give you your work to do what you're doing. And Billy was just all over college athletics and the economics of it.

30:15 And I will tell you that it's been a battle. I don't have to tell any hokey fan. It's been a battle to to get in the right league in the right position. And we hit that sweet spot. That's water under bridge now. But it is instructive. And so you got to separate it as water under the bridge, but you got to look at what it is. You got to find players and I think these guys are suited to do that. They haven't shown that they can't find players. What they've got to get better at is figuring it out.

30:55 And so I just don't think it's a one year window on this deal because of that. I think you're going to get the they got so many they got it's any bidder or you know, one of the assets of the whole hokey culture is Andy Bitter's been here that that is a sharp dude. I watched him work and there a lot of those guys in media are sharp, but Andy is is a real he just leads by how he does it And he he pointed out that they had more four players in the portal this year than they've had in all their years combined. It's true.

31:39 Think about those moving parts. I've coached enough. I've had a lot of fun coaching over the years, starting with being a 24 year old varsity head wrestling coach at Blacksburg High School where I had great wrestlers. But but the whole thing is constructing the kind of culture that Virginia Tech's going to need to prosper, is going to take first cool heads in the fan base. I think you got cool heads in place. And the Hokies haven't been known for cool heads. I mean, they have. They're no worse than anybody else, don't get me wrong. But that's not how it works anymore. And you know, the Hokies, they, they, Al McGuire had a say, a saying, he's got the, he's got the shortest arms and the deepest pockets.

32:42 And you know, they, they just, they just don't go reaching for the damn money. Now, now, don't get me wrong, there are donors and people who love Virginia Tech and have done a lot. This is a lot. Yeah. Let's. Let's pull it back a little bit because one thing I want to talk about is, you know, especially looking at your tenure in Blacksburg, you know, starting with 99 there and thinking about how college athletics has changed, particularly in that kind of 2010 kind of pivot window. And especially once NIL came along. Did Virginia Tech as an institution and as an athletic department do enough to capitalize on the success of Michael Vick and that national title run and the buoyed success of those early years in the ACC? Because the leading up to me that we were behind from there and it only got worse because of the steps we didn't take in the 2000s.

33:48 Roland, before you say, but even before that, 199395 Sugar Bowl beating up to 99. And then Roland, you were there for the subsequent years. Ten wins, ACC titles, big bowl games. To Brian's point, did you tell how you feel? You want me to tell me? Shut the hell up. I'm fine with it. Did the administration drop the ball? Because at that point in time, we were top 10 every single year. We had players going to the NFL. We were a brand and I will never forget. This is one of the big moments for me because I missed the game. One of our dear friends who passed away a few years ago, 2003 Miami was a spectacle on ESPN. It was one of the best overlay production of Sandman very early in its infancy and I could have been in North End zone. I had an insurance payment I had to make. Then I made it and I couldn't drive the Blacksburg because I was a great college kid.

34:51 God bless Brian Wilkerson. So he found me a ticket, but I could not make it. But did we drop it? Because some schools get that window and they literally just run. I don't care who we piss off. I don't care who we make mad. We are one of the best college football programs. We are going to go get every single part that's ours, money included. Sorry I get a little bit sometimes. Well, I would say that we probably danced in then zone a little bit. It was a long road to glory when I mean having to having to listen to all that bullshit from all the ACC folks all those years.

35:33 And if Mudkat Saunders hadn't found found a way with Steve Jarding to threaten the damn governor, they wouldn't have gotten to the. ACC. It's true. It's so true. And so I think in some ways it doesn't matter. It I mean, the only thing that matters right now is the road ahead. Now, were the mistakes made? Yeah. Well, there always are. Yeah. You know, maybe there was another coach out there they could have hired besides Pry, who maybe was, but they hired a pretty good coach.

36:28 I just don't think he ever totally bought in here. I could be wrong about that. Got a prior for one day. Yeah, but I'm saying they maybe could have hired, you know, but it's tough to hire coaches. You know, the thing I look at and personnel, whether it's players or coaches, You Jerry West told me I was sitting with him in 89 and I asked him because he he was coming up and he knew Magic was actually it was 91 because Magic had already been diagnosed.

37:10 This right after that I was doing a project and I asked him how he was going to find the next magic and he said you know the hard part is you can see what people can do on the floor what a player can do. You can see what an executive has done, the kinds of experiences, but what you can't read are their hearts. And so I, I just sort of went to Blacksburg in my own sort of unscientific hillbilly way just to sort of go up there and take an inventory on the arts.

37:51 That's really what a lot of this is about, because it's going to require hearts and wisdom and all that good stuff and, you know, pride. Some good answers for me. You know, he's he's not, he was a wrestler. You know, you're out there alone by yourself. As how I explained it, I understood exactly. You know, it's you and what you got to get done. And I just think the circumstances are such. And I, I, I in the article, I say the circumstances are such.

38:34 You may want to fire Brent Pride for this season. And I said, you know, go ahead, be my guest. But you better look around on a landscape and find you some oil wells in the fan base. And the last thing I said, my last piece of advice is never blink at a mirage. You can lose everything you think you've got in your field of vision in an instant. I think they're making progress. I don't think there's a more thorough guy than Phil Steele. He thinks so. I was just and I work for Lindy, so if I'm touting Phil Steele, you know that I'm just doing it on but excuse. Me, I apologize.

39:22 You're good. But I, you know, there are limits to each and every one of us in terms of perspective on this thing. I think what we do have to read is the seriousness of the changes. And ESPN has, you know, has made the moves it's going to make. Everybody's gambling on the future. Nobody knows what's going to happen. I've had to do 100 Zoom interviews in the last year with Rick Welts, who's now the president of The Mavericks. Before that, it was the president of the Warriors. Before that, it was the president of the Sons.

40:05 And the NBA just got $100 billion in their media rights deal and their their network ratings and cable ratings are. A little iffy or a lot if he did some. And so I was asking him how does that happen? And his answer, he's a really bright guy. He said. You know, it's all about 23 year old eyeballs. Everybody is is trying to it's like an Oklahoma land race for the future in media. These people are paying for all these NBA rights.

40:46 They they're not guaranteed that's going to deliver them to the promised land, but that's their best clear path. And so that's sort of the kind of decision because each of the schools is in the same circumstance. You could pad your schedule back in the day. I mean, everybody needs a break, everybody wants some tasty cakes on the schedule. You know, you drink a little more on game day, you, you know, your anxiety levels low. But that ain't happening now because ESPN is in a life or death struggle itself. And so they have turned all of the force of their power on the 2 super conferences while waiting to see if this thing realigns into some other concoction. But what we know about the richest and the strongest? I mean, this is an eternal truth. They ain't giving it up.

41:51 They are not giving up any of this money that that the SECU. What was Charlton Heston said about gun rights for my cold dead hands? Well, the same applies to nil money to to, you know, all of that network broadcast power money that the SEC and the Big 10 get. Hell, they split up the oldest one of the oldest conferences in America, Distinguished Conference in the in the Pacific and spread it all over the place. We are running around our elbow to get to our ass to have play games on the West Coast. That's not sustainable either.

42:33 But we do have to match up with those slightly relegated teams because if you're worried about Virginia Tech, take a look over your shoulder at the ACC. It's they're coming for them. So that's a that leads into this question and and you throw what you think's going to happen in the next, I don't know. They'll say ACC contract ends in 2035, ten years. What's going to happen just with the, the conference in general? Are we going to go to two Super leagues, 28 teams in the SEC, 28 teams in the Big 10? Is someone going to step in and say, hey, we all get together, we're worth a hell of a lot more money than we are apart? Or is it somewhere in between?

43:25 What do you see? Cause 'cause you've written and seen sports and Senator, like you said, Rick Welts, the former executive president of the, the current president of The Mavericks, former of the Warriors. You've been around some of these guys like that, that have visions and have thoughts. What do you think happens? Well, the, the happy ending is what you just described. The, the problem is that goes against human nature. And I, I don't think anybody, we're in a competitive business that's competition is about stepping on the other guy's neck and keeping your foot there until he's gone.

44:10 And that is what it is. And it is the white collar crowd in each of these universities. They are hungry for that baby. And that's, that's, that's what feeds it. That is competition in America. And so the happy ending is that we get everybody lined up and whatever, 405060. You know, I've seen Virginia Tech listed anywhere from 50, I believe to 31 in, in various rankings this season headed into things. I think if they somehow arranged to get 80 teams in football. But you know, we've just had a whole bunch of folks just jump into D1, including Liberty.

45:04 And Liberty is probably the best suited of any school in the state just to keep shoveling cash in its sports programs because they, they, they just have that apparatus for raking in that money. I mean, they're not just fans, they are religious folks. And so there's nothing wrong with that. They're they're, they give to the place they love. That's how it all works. So the happy ending, yeah, they sort this out. They, you know, that still makes a lot of things probably go away. I, I I hate to see ACC basketball go away. There are things that are near and dear. They are.

45:49 They are things Change shouldn't just obliterate culture. Now change does move on from culture, but the culture, college football, the culture of the various conferences, that resonates a lot of things, but nothing resonates like the cold cash. Not at all. I love what you said there a second ago about the goal is to squeeze and kill all your competition. But the thing about sports is you have to have competitors.

46:33 If you kill all your competition, who's going to turn on the TV anymore? Who's going to say, hey, do you want to watch Ohio State play Texas for the sixth time this year? Well, no, I've watched the first one. I'm I'm done with it. And I think that's what a lot of people think could happen because right now we're in this unbelievable bubble for college football and, and the whole thing you talk about that cash, eventually you're going to kill the wrong person or the wrong school and people are going to start turning off the. Television, the wrong conference. And I and I think, you know, in our discussion on and off camera, yeah, I've talked about reasons to articulate hope.

47:21 And that's a big part of what I'm doing and looking at this. And you just articulated in excellent fashion one of the biggest pieces of hope. ESPN likes the Hokies probably love them. I don't know if a corporation can't, but I think so, I think. And so there are adjustments to be made. It's going to require a lot of wisdom. It's going to require a lot of political skill. So far, the ACC is thrown enough punches and tough enough to hold on. I don't think the PAC 10, PAC 12, whatever it is, did that they they gave up the money got going and that there's going to be some defections. But what is going to be left and how's it going to be spread around?

48:15 I don't know because it's it's beyond what each of us can see and what and the huge thing clouding it is the amount of money it takes for these colleges operates pro sports teams. And it certainly means the death of a lot more minor sports. And you know that you're going to have people making pretty good money playing football and basketball, and you're going to have a lot of people doing excellent things in sports. But we've now let the the I'm not a big fan of the Supreme Court.

49:01 They've just made decisions that have wrecked American culture in my mind. And they are holding position. And I think this is one of them. I don't know where we get sanity on this, but whatever is created is ultimately going to end up at the Supreme Court again, and it's not going to be able to infringe. I don't think they're going to back off of infringing on the name, image, likeness rights of these young people playing sports. You know that all centered on my man here, Jordan, the the NBA was used to take him was getting ready to take the name image likeness rights and Jordan's agent very quickly negotiated he is ahead of that. And they they weren't able to commandeer and pull Jordan away from the great wealth the market was ready to bestow upon him. It took him a long time to get paid his work as a player. But off the court, you know, it was a different story. And so some of these players, you know, probably another Jordan or two coming along that are somehow going to win the lottery of the culture.

50:22 They're going to step up. Boy, I hope he's in Parisburg right now. Wouldn't that be a blessing? Well, you never know, but you know, I, I have, I have marvelled over a variety of coaches. We'll get a lot of speed on the Dang on roster and they pretend like it's not there. I, I don't know if the speed is deeply flawed somehow. If if I ever had chance to to really sit down and annoy the shit out of a coach, I would ask those kinds of questions. That would be a good question because I think in particular, just looking at this past combine where you had, you know, your your running back and your, your wide receiver go out there and you know, put top 340 times on the board against the best competition in in the country.

51:15 And you know, you didn't always see that necessarily come out on game day. It it would come out and burst, but I think it wasn't always maximized by the offensive staff in particular last year to take advantage of some of those speed elements of those players. I, I will say from my years of coaching, it takes a while to know what you have, but you, you got, you can't let that go on. You have got to really. And I think changing coordinators is a huge thing and I think I do believe we're going to see that this season. You you have people who are actually coming in.

51:59 It's one thing to have a first time head coach who's been a great coordinator, but when you're coming in and your roles are filled by people who are also learning on the job, that's very hard to do because, and I'm dealing with that. We're making a LeBron James documentary and it's with a Canadian film company and it's it's we've had a lot of fun. We shot 110 hours of film. But we we've gotten a point in the road where these guys are really looking at each other a loss for a loss for what to do. And so that's the course of human events. I do think surprise, a smart tough guy. I think his heart's in the right place. I think he has, you know, all that he told me all the coaches are talking.

52:52 He he says it's a wild, Wild West. We can't keep doing it like this. And that's what they've all said. And, you know, I think you're going to be lucky to hold on to a coach because it is crazy. I mean, you barely have time to learn the names, much less evaluate to talent. Now they're working. They've gotten that. They've been given more time. They are paying players like pros, and they are working beyond what the pros are doing in a lot of regards. And so they got eyeballs on them more. But what drama?

53:39 Let me ask this before we move on. So you know, we talked about Pry there. You know, we titled this this episode, right Man, Wrong time. When we look at Brent Pry and we look at the way and the position that Virginia Tech's in, we look at the potential realignment. We look at NIL in the extra 70 + 1,000,000 that Whit Babcock says he needs. What are the chances that Virginia Tech gets left out in this next shuffle? And if they do, is that a death sentence from from a long term competitive standpoint? Well, I'll tell you this, they're still jumping. That's item number one.

54:25 There's still absolute joy on game day. They're still jumping. They got to have a little more to jump about. If they get a little more, I think they'll jump higher. I really do. And I think this I said it's the most consequential season in the history of the program. And I don't think that it if if I mean, there is no way that that Miami game that was that was basically the ACC in a shitty they had a school. No, it is. It was just no, they had a school that had a chance. They've got to make noise.

55:06 They're going to have stature. The ACCS like ESPN, everybody else, they're in survival mode. And so they had they had to just abandoned their rules and give the game to Miami because that was their best bet for the College Football Playoff in that moment. Now that that didn't but that that decided that game because there's no way. And they admitted to him there's no way Coach Prague, you know, went back at him a good bit. I think that Virginia Tech is up against it. Obviously.

55:47 I think they've got a batch of players in here. They got some nice players and the other bottom line here, in addition to the the things you mentioned, it's a great place. It's a beautiful place. I I saw Pry. I saw this video of Pry. He was like a kid with Metallica. Did y'all see that video? Oh yeah. You know, he's out here. He's listening. He'll show up at a Jared Stout band show. He is he's he's a genuine spirit. Now that may end up being tragically wrong. I don't think so, because he is tough as nails too. And he talks constantly about hard conversations. So these guys are getting paid.

56:36 These are not children anymore. These are pro athletes. And so they, you know, pro the pro game. I, I, I enjoyed going to cover in the NBAI didn't like talking to college athletes. I didn't think it was fair. They're kids. When I, I worked for the old Blacksburg Son, I quit my coaching and teaching job to become a writer and I got hired as a sports editor of Blacksburg Son. I covered Dooley's first season and I you'd interview those guys and they're all going yes Sir, no Sir. And and I, I was 24 at the time.

57:20 So but, but the thing I liked about the NBA, if they didn't, each guy you talked to was a corporation. If they didn't, if they didn't like and you talk about testosterone, the NBA was quite a experience and having done it 40 years, they they didn't like your question. They tell you just to take a long walk. They I mean, they wouldn't say it like that and, and, and they were there. They're empowered people. And so there there's part of this thing that's pretty good. The opportunity for young people is good. I don't resent somebody changing jobs to get more money.

58:03 It it it sort of cracks the egg on the falsehood of, you know, we're doing it for the old alma mater here. They're doing it because they're getting paid. And guess what? A lot of them need to Jack, They need to scratch their families. A lot of them really need it. And but others are loyal to the core. And I like talking to both parties. You know, young people are impressive and I think Brent Pryor and his crew, they've gotten together. I thought, you know, maybe I'm an old fuddy Duddy. I don't think so. I, I, I read hearts up there.

58:46 I, I think they're pretty good now. They may quit on y'all against South Carolina. They may just get waxed. And that will be, that's the thing. And maybe they won't. Maybe they'll do some crazy stuff. Maybe Kyron Drones is going to come out there and stick the ball in somebody's face mask right off the bat. I don't know. But the daggone thing is, it's going to be something. It could be the greatest horror show, and it could be, you know, I'll tell you a story I like. Do you have a minute for a Virginia Tech story?

59:30 Frankie Allen, you know, he's getting ready for the 8687 season. He's Charlie's assistant. And they come up with something where they got to fire Charlie because some kind of recruiting bullshit. And so everybody in the metro is making 400,000 and they pay Frankie 35 to be the head coach. And Billy Stevens, the hero of the NIT, gets furious if they hire Frankie over him. And he quits. And so Virginia Tech says it doesn't have the money to hire an assistant. So they find him an intern out of the Midwest.

1:00:12 So he's got a Frankie's got to pull them together. And Frankie's a man of faith. He's, he's a great guy and so he pulls them all together and they've got to play John Thompson in Georgetown. They've got to get on a bus and ride Virginia Tech wanting to pay to fly and they've got to ride down to Tidewater. John Thompson is recruiting Alonzo Mourning and they, they want to have the Hokies down there to, to whip up on him in front of Alonso. And so the Hokies get on this daggone bus and they ride what, 7 hours in a bus down to play John Thompson. And Frankie calls everybody together before they get on the bus. He says, I want to talk to you all about John 316. Does anybody know about that?

1:01:06 And Tim, I forget Tim's last name, A guy raised his hand says John Thompson weighs 316 lbs. The whole locker room just explodes in law. So that becomes their battle cry. So they're chatting John 316 John, they're going down there and the world doesn't know about Bimbo Coles. And they get down there and they're supposed to, you know, be the Washington generals for for John's big recruiting and, and Frankie's got all these John Thompson stories. But they get down there in tech beats and they're all chanting as they leave.

1:01:53 And John Thompson's out there cussing reporters saying you better get that interim name off that guy. You got the interim tag off that guy's name. He's a hell of a coach. And just load up in the bus and they're coming back up to Blacksburg and it's a long bus drive and they have the same bus driver, some old cat they give, they're always on his last. And so they're they're coming in the back up into western Virginia. And the state trooper pulls them over and they are raising him. He'll take you to jail. Snuffy or whatever his name was.

1:02:34 He had to get off and talk to the trooper and he said he gets back on the bus. They're all yelling at him. He says they're giving us an escort to Blacksburg and they roll into Blacksburg. Castle is swamped with people going nuts and they've ended up beating George Raveling in USC in that preseason. Now, here's the thing with this trumped up thing against Charlie Tech has a great basketball season, but they barter away the rights to go to the tournament to get out of sanctions from that very corrupt organization, the NCAA. Well, one thing we can all be glad for and Sonny Vaccaro, my my friend, you know, has run a lifelong campaign against NCAA that that son of a gun is almost gone because it what up. I had to do a write a magazine story for Lindy when Ohio State won and I I titled it tattoo this because you know, the NCAA going to come in and burn these guys over some tattoos today. The cash flying around.

1:03:54 I mean, it's just gone from ridiculous to insane. Well, they've, they created this problem. They, they, they've created the situation doing nothing, sitting on their on their fists, doing nothing, fighting it tooth and nail instead of saying this is where it's heading. Understanding you can't be raking up this much money as an organization, as these conferences, as these member schools, and not compensating the players that are going out there and sweating for it, right? And, and, and not not having the longevity and the vision to see that that's where it's going. And then being put in the situation where you are forced to implement it from a legal standpoint and still just wash your hands of it like it's not your problem. The place the the sports were awash in money back in the day in 1970.

1:04:46 As I said, I was a walk on it. VMI Yeah, that season VMI varsity was one in 10. Now we were a bunch of skinny ass freshmen going. I weighed 159 lbs playing notes card and a linebacker. The starting Center for BMI weighed 220 on the varsity. And I mean by by the third game and VMI was playing a lot of money games. By the third game, those guys were so beat up UNC with Don McCauley beating like 62 to three. You know, they were, they were just getting slaughtered. And even then those guys on that team, and it ended up being the, the, the head coach and the the captain, the senior tackle gotten a fistfight in practice in front of everybody.

1:05:36 They're about rolling around in the dirt like it's WWE or something. But even the even the players at VMI on A1 in 10 team, we're getting $50 handshakes after the game from the alums and $50.00 that isn't selling much. I unstopped sewers for the town of Whitfield with a $23 take home pay a week at $1.30 an hour was the minimum wage then. So a $50 check was two weeks pay for every game. They were getting those handshakes and that was VMI. Which VMI is like ridiculous in terms of observing every kind of rule possible. And so college athletics has always been full of a lot of money, but handed out in weird ways. And then no longer, in a weird way, I want to go back to South Carolina because you telling that story about Georgetown, you say we're going to go.

1:06:36 We could go down and get our asses waxed. But that's why they play the games, right? Because if you had told that crew going up to play Georgetown in 19, I think it's 88 or 89, you're going to win this king. People probably laughed at you. No, it's John Thompson. That's where Ewing play. They got Mourning, then they got Mutombo and all these guys. But that's why they play the game. So going down to Atlanta, it won't be on a bus. It's probably going to be on a nice commercial flight out of Roanoke down to Atlanta. Yeah, I don't know. They're probably won't even sit down in the in the big Atlanta airport. They'll probably go to one of the private ones down there to make it easy on team. But you play the game.

1:07:23 How much tone? Because you said this is one of those season. It is a crossroads season. It is a season that is going to define a lot of things for Brent Pry and for this school. Guys, Karen drones and and he is back. We are going to get a window into his heart. Now, I'm not talking about misfortune. He he had a lot of misfortune. A lot of he played injured last year. But I am telling you, he showed me at the end of that Miami game. He stood there, made that play and I that guy's got heart. He he could have, he could have ducked out. He he wants to stand here and confront this thing. And if he goes down there and you don't know right, I agree. And they needed some kind of chant. Maybe I should have told pry about John 360. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

1:08:18 But the point is, yeah, I I you know, I would like it is a family struggle. You know, this is, this is a family struggle. You know your next book. Oh. If crazy shit, what if crazy shit happens down there in this season? No, you know. Back story's there. This Gordon book is 700 and some pages, my magic book that came out was the cover of the New York Times book is 800.

1:09:01 I, I don't have any I'm, I'm rolling along on. I'm getting paid to do, I'm sort of an executive producer on projects that will either be scripted or documentary films. And sometimes I'm getting points, but you know, I don't have to work too hard and they've got fine writers that are doing the thing and so I don't need to. I had fun doing this article. I don't mind doing articles, but you know I've I've had my run at it.

1:09:46 And and this season, I mean, when you look, you talked about Kyron and I think, you know, we've had Kyron on this show. We talked to him, we talked to his dad a lot. I mean, these are these are really great people. And I think the. Oh, tell me about that. Yeah, I'm going to hear what you. When when we talked to to Kyron, he is he's very much a quiet lead by example guy, but he is a guy when he gets in the moment and he is feeling it and his confidence is is burning. He's a gamer. And I think that's what I think a lot of people maybe miss about him is that in the moment, with playing with confidence, I would I would take him up against any college quarterback in the NCAA right now.

1:10:29 Brian. There's one game rolling. I want you to go back and look at Pittsburgh 2023. He throws a bomb touchdown. He is running down that sideline, given the finger and given the FU to every single Pit Panther defender and, and and you're watching and it's like he doesn't care. He's almost challenged him to come hit me because I'm going to keep putting it in the end zone every time. And I think seeing that in saying what Brian said and we talked with him, he is that soft guy, but you put him on that field. There's always talking about and you've probably Jordan had it, Magic had it. So many great players have it.

1:11:09 It's a switch and when they click that switch get out of the way. Especially in football. Exactly. Now basketball is, is, is a different product. But, but there's a, there's the tremendous explosion. Jordan's unbelievable. I, I, I thank my lucky stars for all those seasons. Tex Winter was my best friend and guide to the whole thing. I couldn't have been luckier. I didn't deserve it. And you know, the Chicago Tribune needed somebody to do projects on the team, their book division of all things. But the point is drones. I saw something.

1:11:51 Everything I've got is that. And I went up there and I saw him stand over on the far sideline and at indoor facility all by himself. And I said something's not right. The next day they announced they were shutting him down. But I got the sense that he had a lot of they got a lot of new faces, but that he had a lot of respect on that roster. But somebody on one of these sites slandered the crap out of him. And so I just wonder, you just never know because some of these Hokies can get a little weird, But I, I, that's not what I get out of Kyron drones. I think he is, he's that guy that wants to do it. You know, I also spent a lot of time with Kobe. People thought he was out of his mind. I was with Kobe through all the eight man years and you know, I did 2 books on him.

1:12:53 But Kobe was was sort of like that. He he was just going to be that guy and he, you know, he's riding that horse for destiny. And Kobe was I thought, man, you got to worry about him. He's thinking he's going to be the greatest. He was 1819 year old kid when I was first hanging out with him. He thinks he's going to be the greatest all time and he'll look at you and tell you that I said Lord and and Karen just sort of the kinds of things you're, you're saying there could be good things happen. It's not precluded for Virginia Tech.

1:13:35 It's not it's not hopeless. It's just very difficult. Sure. Well, you brought it up and let's go ahead and talk a little bit about it because I don't know if you know, but I am a I'm a Lakers fan here. So I'd like to hear somebody that's that's, you know, talked extensively with, you know, wrote the book on Magic, wrote one on Kobe, had had some conversations there. What's what's 1 story about Magic and one story about Kobe? Maybe you want to share with us that that that might be kind of cool to hear. Wow, Co with magic it actually he was an amazing kid. He was an he just had and you know, it's a complicated story, but they were had bussing.

1:14:30 This is in 7370 and he had an older brother. He had ten siblings or nine siblings and his older brother was a hell of a player. And but they, they all got bussed. They were in a perfectly racially balanced school, but they, they started bussing in Lansing, MI, 100 kids a time. And so his brother, the day before Christmas, Magic was still in like 8th grade and he wouldn't go to high school at 10th grade. But it's the coaches, first time they had black players right before Christmas, they kicked 5 black players off the basketball team. First all white school, first time they're there. And I, I spent, I spent 100 hours interviewing these two coaches that kicked them off.

1:15:21 And it, it, it's like this really sore subject that it just ached across the decades. And magic has to go. The school system says he has to go to that white school now. He sleeps in a bed with his brother, his brother. When he got cut, all the other four kids took it. His brother cussed the coaches out. He would cuss them out in the hall. Every time he saw him, it was like. And this boiled over and he and Magic shared a bed. And Magic went to bed every night listening to his angry brother. And Magic did not want to go to Lansing play for those coaches. And he lives way down in the city. They're out in the suburbs.

1:16:12 And it's finally when he has to go. And it's it's like that summer and he has a bicycle. He's the only kid in his neighborhood has a bicycle. He never rides because nobody else has a bicycle. What's he going to do, get on a bicycle? This old man's an auto work. So he gets on that bicycle and rides way out in the country. There's a park out there and he rides by the coach's house. And I'm, I mean, you don't cross those lines in the 70s. And he goes and knocks on the door and visits with the coach's daughter and and the coach hasn't as a short goal, but but Magic takes it upon himself as a 14, almost 15 year old kid. And he goes back several times, his emotional intelligence and the ability to do it now, all the stories about everything. I mean, he went from this incredibly. And he was a powerful kid.

1:17:28 I mean, he took over the school and he would call his own, he would call his own assemblies outside first for things. And they would just, they didn't know what to do with it. But he was a really good kid. But you know, he got he got mixed up with Terry Furlough and what's going to Terry Furlough got killed early. He's a brilliant player of Michigan State, but Magic at 1516 got over there with the college girls at Michigan State, which I mean, just the trial run for the insane life he lived in LA.

1:18:09 And so his business story, you know, he's a he's a billionaire. He was trying to catch Jordan, but I mean, the business deals he struck and the things he's done and then to to, you know, to basically be sex addicted and end up HIV positive. It's a it was a crazy story. Jordan on the other hand, he just scared everybody to death. The NBA was the damn like I said, Testosterone City and I spent five seasons with the Detroit Bad boys. I did their their team books and their championship stories and for Stylist Publisher.

1:19:04 So anyway, I got to my whole thing was watching Jordan and the bad boys and all the evil shit they did to him. So it was and and Jordan, I mean, not backing down and he, you know, he finally got built up and but Jordan scared everybody. Not quite the the bad boy Pistons, although he scared them too. But Jordan was just I mean, and I had to work hard to to really get that audience with Jordan that I needed all those one-on-one interviews with him and Tex winner, you know, coach Jordan longer than anybody. And he would tell me all the shit that was going on and I would then start to use that.

1:20:01 For example, I was up in Toronto and the locker rooms were packed the. The PR director, Tim Hallam called it the Pig Fuck. It was packed with, with media and, and the, the, the proposal for my Jordan book, the little Brown was called the Pig Fuck. And and it was about being in that crazy crowd. And we're up in Toronto and Texas told me some stuff that I need to ask Jordan to just to send a message. And so Pippen comes out of the locker room 1st and all the media go follow him. I mean, it's like whoosh. And you, I've gotten where I could time it here. A minute later, here comes Jordan. And I know that I'm going to get a minute and a half, maybe, maybe a minute walking across the locker room one-on-one with him to ask him a question.

1:20:57 And I always tried to ask him where he would stop and cut those eyes at me. Like, you know, how do you know that? And so Jordan was a challenge there. Kobe and Shaq were in a war. And I introduced Tex to Kobe before Tex became a Lakers assistant coach because Kobe was a lost, lonely kid. I really worried for his mental health and the Techs started calling him up. They they, they exchanged phone numbers. I hooked him up.

1:21:42 And Jerry Crowell said, what in the hell is Tech calling Kobe Bryant? You know, because the assistant coach called a player on another team a huge no no. And then I introduced Kobe to George Mumford before a game in Houston one night. George is the mindfulness guru who was Phil Jackson's Zen master. And Kobe considered George. He was very skeptical. That was Michael skeptical of George, but they both came to consider him critical. In fact, George was the only thing that Shaq and Kobe really ever agreed on that it was, it was tense there. It was.

1:22:26 It's crazy when a team has terrible chemistry and you got a lot of talent and terrible chemistry, immense talent. Immense. Talent. Terrible. Chemistry and what what these tech teams sometimes have had and and I will say one thing, you know, the pandemic that for Fuente and Pry it was, you know, I don't want to throw off too much from Fuente. I really didn't spend time talking to him or I just he really pissed me off and he went down to Baylor to apply for that job. I said, you're out of there, buddy. There's no way you can.

1:23:14 Yeah, him coming back from that was kind of, I know. It rubbed a lot of people in the fan base the wrong way. And you know, you call it, you know, a reconnaissance mission to see what other schools are doing or whatever you will. But I mean, it's still it, it, it, it rubbed people the wrong way. It sent it sent a wrong message about where where we were and where we wanted to be and what his commitment was exactly. And, and I mean that. Was already at a point where. From a from a closing standpoint and a recruiting standpoint, he didn't really have the the goodwill of the fan base to burn on something like that. Yeah, he did not. He never really wanted to connect, you know, pry is he under?

1:24:06 He got, you know, he was there. He gets it. He, you know, a lot of coaches would really bristle at Frank Beamer walking around the halls and he worships pride, worships Frank Beamer. And he really does not want to disappoint him. And, you know, so much for that. I ultimately you do have to win games. I just don't see it in the cards unless they go oh, and 11 or whatever it is they're playing or three and eight. I don't see that happening at all unless they have horrific injuries. I think these coordinators are given pride. The support he did not have from his coordinators previously. That's my and I think that's the, I think that's the truth coming out of all this.

1:25:01 I really do. And I think they got it. They got an offensive offensive coordinator. He's offensive minded. I mean, the guy knows what he's doing, He knows what he's looking for. They had a he's coached A Heisman Trophy winner. So I mean he's. Experiences everything. And, and, and I, you know, the, the, the defensive coordinator, they're not bashful. They are not I I think they're going to be good and The Who knows what the Hokies will do. That's on Chiron a lot and he wants to do it. I know that. And he he hasn't said I'm telling you the money and running.

1:25:45 He's that's that's not what he's about South in that sense, just by the Jerry West rule. He, he shows up, he's got I, I read him as having a lot of heart. I think he he kind of epitomizes. Just from a personality standpoint, a lot of kind of what we what we saw a little bit from those big runs in the 2000s. He's got, he's got grit and swagger in equal amounts. And I think you kind of need to have that to be successful at quarterback. Now you got to, you got to be tough, but you got to have a little bit of swagger and a little bit of attitude and, and, and play with the chip on your shoulder.

1:26:34 I you just hear you say that. Makes me think of all the swagger with those Bulls. I had to do a flashback piece about that 9596 Bulls team that that went 72 and 10. They they were, it was ridiculous how much swagger they did. And you know, Phil, I was thought I had to talk to Phil Jackson and he was saying, you know, there's no more powerful feeling than walking into a building, somebody's building. You get off your bus, you walk into the building and you're walking in with Michael Jordan.

1:27:18 You cannot, he says. You cannot imagine that now where it gets really bad is trying to be around him on the days between games. He he is. It just will eat you alive trying to deal with him. But Jordan had a lot of charisma. The the the big fuck thing was about, you know, he would come out in these great suits and the they would glom onto him in that locker room. And then I mean, you know, post locker room, all the and the PR directors were going Michael come to the podium. Don't and he did not want to do it. He wanted the intimacy of all those damn reporters. And he you know, he had so much charisma and everybody there, he was like a spectacle.

1:28:10 I can't believe I'm looking at this guy. You know, everybody's this is surreal and every minute of it was borderline surreal. And there are guys like that now. Michael was just a a regular Joe a lot North Carolina. You you don't know. It makes you wonder if Michael had that gear if he hadn't gotten with the dogs. I don't Michael Vick. I don't know. I don't I don't know. I didn't really spend time observing him, but it's interesting. It it it is part of the hope for the Hokies. They just got to they got to understand this is not business as usual in college, this wild, Wild West. Yeah.

1:29:09 And I think that they've I. Think we're? Understanding that, I think the changes that have been made, you mentioned the coordinators a couple times tonight, the changes in strength and conditioning, the bringing on with more staff. I think Brent Pride knows it. And we, we've talked to Brent Pride, we've interviewed him twice and he does understand the culture. He understands the importance of it. And Roland talking with you the last 90 minutes here, it's great to see how much you understand the importance of it. And you have been there, Hey, growing up in Withville School in Lexington, the whole valley. Yeah. We're going to wrap it up here. Please. Please. What what I want you to do if? You're able leave us e-mail. Phone number something because we want you back on here. We don't know when.

1:29:54 Maybe it'll be a good story. If you like enjoying, if you like to partake in any sort of bourbon or whatever, every year in December. Drinker from age 13 on. So yeah. OK, so write this down in December every. Year we get on here, we call it the state of the program. And we talk about our Hokies. And it is a night where we we Evan Williams White label, I've got a big bottle of Black label Johnnie Walker Scotch, and we lay our feelings. But Roland, we. Appreciate you having on. Hang with us just a second. We'll grab your info. We're going to wrap up this episode of the Boundary Corner podcast.

1:30:36 Brought to you by the Main Street Pharmacy in Blacksburg. Brought to you by Moments on the Moray in Lexington, 2 of Roland's most favorite places in the world, I'm assuming along with the Virginia. I'm Curtis Wilson. I'm Brian Siegler. Check out Boundary Corner BT. Dot com listen to all of our. Episodes follow us Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all the fun places, YouTube as well. Get us on your favorite podcast source. As always, Jason Long who plays us on plays it out down in Roanoke. That's Liz's husband, that's our buddy's wife. Check him out Jason Long music.com and you can link to everything from him there.

1:31:16 We appreciate Roland, you do not know the stories. We might just be calling you just to get a few stories every now and then, rolling just for the pure hell of it. As always, let's go Hokies.